JRE MMA Show #61 with Herb Dean

Episode Summary

Main Topics Discussed

• The extreme responsibility and inherent difficulty of being an MMA referee, which Joe Rogan rates as the second hardest job in the sport, second only to the fighters themselves.
• A detailed discussion and re-evaluation of the controversial stoppage in the Ben Askren vs. Robbie Lawler fight, focusing on Herb Dean's perspective regarding fighter safety and the specific dangers of the bulldog choke.
• The evolution of different fighting styles and techniques in MMA, from pure wrestling to highly technical striking, and unique submissions like the Ezekiel choke.
• The brutal realities of bare-knuckle boxing, including the extent of injuries and the unexpected fragility of the human hand without traditional gloves.
• The psychological aspects of fighting, including the concept of "battle joy" – a fighter's enjoyment and peak performance during intense, challenging moments of a bout.
• The moral and ethical responsibilities of a referee, extending even to their personal conversations about fights to maintain impartiality.
• Analysis of specific dangerous submission techniques, such as the "Executioner" choke, Twister, and various forms of neck manipulation, and the potential for severe, long-term injury.
• Discussion of historical MMA moments, including the "double knockout" between Carlos Newton and Matt Hughes.
• The recent TJ Dillashaw EPO scandal and the serious health risks associated with performance-enhancing drugs like EPO.

Key Insights & Memorable Moments

• Joe Rogan strongly emphasizes that Herb Dean's job as a referee carries immense responsibility for fighter safety, making it one of the toughest roles in sports.
• Herb Dean explains his decision to stop the Askren-Lawler fight by stating he observed a limp arm from Askren, which indicates unconsciousness, especially when combined with the severe, backward pressure on the C-spine from a bulldog choke. He emphasizes that this type of choke leaves less margin for error than a rear-naked choke.
• The concept of "battle joy" is introduced, describing the specific type of happiness or engagement a fighter like Justin Gaethje experiences when fully immersed in a brutal, back-and-forth battle.
• Herb Dean recounts a terrifying experience from a King of the Cage event years ago where a fighter was put in a unique, spine-bending choke (similar to an "Executioner" choke) and suffered temporary paralysis in his neck, highlighting the extreme dangers of certain submissions that affect the spine.
• The discussion on bare-knuckle fighting reveals that fighters often wrap their hands extensively to prevent bones from breaking, even though their knuckles are bare, pointing to the delicate nature of the human hand.
• Herb Dean shares his personal philosophy of treating his role as a "sacred trust," balancing the athletes' dreams and aspirations with their immediate safety.
• The historical account of the Carlos Newton vs. Matt Hughes fight where Hughes was choked unconscious, dropped Newton who was also momentarily knocked out from the impact, and Hughes then awoke to be told he had won, was a particularly memorable and wild moment.

Notable Quotes or Revelations

• Joe Rogan: "You have the hardest job in the sport other than the fighters... Referee is the second hardest job in the sport. It's a f***ing hard job."
• Herb Dean on his own commentary: "It's not that easy. It's not that hard rather, it's pretty easy... I'm a blabbermouth so I can't shut the f*** up anyway."
• Herb Dean on Justin Gaethje's fighting spirit: "It's a weird willingness to engage almost like a almost fearless willingness to engage and it seems like like yeah and when he's in there getting it that's when uh it seems like he's at his happiest."
• Herb Dean: "Battle battle joy, you know what I mean? Yeah you hear it like oh he's in it, you know battle joy's real s***."
• Herb Dean on the Askren-Lawler stoppage: "I saw everything that would indicate I'm seeing an unconscious fighter. I see an arm go limp for no reason whatsoever."
• Herb Dean emphasizing neck safety: "Anytime you have a choke where somebody's where where there's pressure on the neck and there's been been in the c-spine backwards like that, that's a that's a rough situation for me."
• Herb Dean on his commitment: "I feel that I have a sacred trust. I feel that it's one of these positions that like um our athletes are not stupid people... and I need to balance that with their safety."

Overall Themes

• The Weight of Responsibility: The episode consistently underlines the immense pressure and critical decision-making involved in being an MMA referee, especially concerning fighter welfare and the integrity of the sport.
• Safety First: A paramount theme is fighter safety, with Herb Dean detailing his rationale for stoppages and his concern over techniques that pose a high risk of spinal or neurological damage.
• Evolution of Combat: The discussion highlights the continuous innovation and adaptation within mixed martial arts, where new techniques emerge, old ones are revisited, and diverse styles clash.
• The Human Element: Beyond the techniques and rules, the conversation delves into the human aspects of fighting—the courage, the "battle joy," the physical fragility, and the dedication required of athletes, as well as the ethical considerations for those who officiate and commentate.