Joe Rogan Experience #2338 - Beth Shapiro

Episode Summary

Main Topics

Beth Shapiro, Chief Science Officer at Colossal, discusses her journey into ancient DNA and paleogenomics, detailing harrowing field expeditions in Siberia and Alaska. The conversation explores Colossal's pioneering de-extinction efforts, particularly the creation of direwolves like Romulus, Remus, and Klesi, and the scientific methodologies and ethical debates surrounding such endeavors. Shapiro also touches on historical human interactions with nature, including early ideas about extinction, invasive species challenges, and the potential for gene-editing in conservation and personalized medicine, framing humanity's role as "playing God" with nature.

Key Discussion Points

• Ancient DNA and Fieldwork Challenges: Shapiro recounts early experiences in ancient DNA research, including expeditions to Siberia with Alan Cooper. She describes extreme conditions like pervasive mosquitoes (killing 35 in one clap) and precarious Russian helicopter travel in Taimyr, leading to an unexpected encounter with Dolgon reindeer herders.
• The Science of De-Extinction and Contamination: The discussion covers ancient DNA's origins, including PCR's invention by Kary Mullis (while on LSD), and the crucial need for clean labs to prevent modern DNA contamination. Shapiro humorously details debunked "dinosaur DNA" papers from the early 90s, where initial sequences turned out to be chicken DNA from researchers' fried chicken lunches.
• Human Evolutionary History and New Discoveries: Shapiro highlights the sequencing of Neanderthal and Denisovan genomes, which rewrote understandings of human interbreeding. She also mentions recent findings like the "Julianis" with large skulls and a 6,000-year-old skeleton in Colombia with "never-before-seen DNA," demonstrating continuous challenges to existing paleoanthropological models.
• Direwolf Project at Colossal and Criticisms: Shapiro elaborates on Colossal's creation of direwolves by editing grey wolf DNA, detailing traits like increased size, muscularity, and a unique light-colored coat identified through ancient DNA. She addresses critics who question if these are "true" direwolves, arguing that science defines species flexibly and their work applies advanced genetic tools to conservation, such as the red wolf project.
• Conservation Dilemmas and Human Intervention: The episode explores historical and modern human interference in ecosystems. This includes the early 20th-century "meat question" and the absurd proposal to import hippos to Louisiana, plus the devastating impact of Burmese pythons in Florida. Shapiro also discusses the controversial reintroduction of wolves in Colorado, highlighting how "ballot box biology" can lead to damaging consequences for ranchers.

Notable Moments

• Siberian Cheese-Saving Encounter: During a disastrous field expedition in glaciated Taimyr, after running out of medical ethanol for drinking, the team was unexpectedly visited by armed Dolgon reindeer herders. A French couple diffused the tense situation by offering massive gouda and brie cheese from their cooler, fostering peaceful interaction.
• Giraffes' Dubious Intelligence: Shapiro shares anecdotes from Colossal's Chief Animal Officer, Matt James, about giraffes repeatedly getting into dangerous situations due to apparent stupidity. This contrasts with a study suggesting their intelligence in selecting food, highlighting a humorous disconnect between observed behavior and real-world challenges.
• Thomas Jefferson's Mammoth Obsession: The discussion reveals Thomas Jefferson's deep fascination with mammoths and his efforts to use them to disprove European theories of "American degeneracy." He believed mammoths were still alive and sought evidence through expeditions like Lewis and Clark, rejecting the then-nascent concept of extinction as a violation of natural and religious balance.

Key Takeaways

This episode highlights the cutting edge of paleogenomics and de-extinction, showing how ancient DNA continuously rewrites our understanding of natural and human history. It prompts listeners to consider humanity's long-standing role in shaping ecosystems and the ethical responsibilities accompanying advanced genetic technologies. The conversation underscores scientific innovation's importance for conservation and medicine, alongside academic and public resistance. Ultimately, Shapiro argues humans are inherently "playing God," and must become "good at it."